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March 20, 1998Part 2 | Part 3 | Part 4 754 1 SECOND JUDICIAL DISTRICT COURT COUNTY OF BERNALILLO 2 STATE OF NEW MEXICO 3 JOHN/JANE DOES, CAUSE NOS. CV-93-02879 CV-93-02881 4 Plaintiffs, CV-93-02883 CV-93-06343 5 against CV-93-07186 CV-93-07188 6 ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THE CV-93-08930 ARCHDIOCESE OF SANTA FE, INC., CV-93-11710 7 a New Mexico Corporation, et al., CV-94-05040 CV-94-05041 8 Defendants. CV-94-05042 CV-94-05043 9 CV-94-05044 CV-94-05045 10 CV-94-05046 CV-94-05047 11 CV-94-05048 CV-94-05049 12 CV-94-05050 CV-94-05051 13 CV-94-05052 CV-94-05053 14 CV-94-05054 CV-94-05598 15 CV-94-06778 CV-94-07031 16 CV-94-07716 CV-94-07977 17 CV-94-08075 18 19 DEPOSITION OF ARCHBISHOP ROBERT F. SANCHEZ 20 Volume V 21 October 3, 1994 22 9:30 a.m. 23 5625 Isleta Boulevard, S.W. 24 Albuquerque, New Mexico 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 755 1 PURSUANT TO THE NEW MEXICO RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE this deposition was: 2 TAKEN BY: STEPHEN E. TINKLER 3 ATTORNEY FOR THE PLAINTIFFS 4 REPORTED BY: DEBORAH O'BINE, RPR, NM CCR #63 5 Cumbre Court Reporting 117 N. Guadalupe 6 Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 7 A P P E A R A N C E S 8 For the Plaintiffs: 9 STEPHEN E. TINKLER 10 MERIT BENNETT Attorneys at Law 11 425 Sandoval Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 12 REESE, MATHEY & SCHOFIELD 13 P.O. Box 1060 Green River, Wyoming 82935 14 BY: ROBERT J. REESE, ESQ. 15 For the Defendant Archdiocese: 16 SIMONS, CUDDY & FRIEDMAN P.O. Box 11648 17 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87192-0648 BY: KAREN C. KENNEDY, ESQ. 18 KELEHER & McLEOD, P.A. 19 P.O. Drawer AA Albuquerque, New Mexico 87103 20 BY: ARTHUR O. BEACH, ESQ. 21 EAVES, BARDACKE & BAUGH, P.A. P.O. Box 35670 22 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87176-5680 BY: PETER S. KIERST, ESQ. 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 756 1 For the Defendant Archbishop: 2 STOUT & WINTERBOTTOM 320 Central Avenue, S.W., Suite 30 3 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102 BY: RICHARD A. WINTERBOTTOM, ESQ. 4 For the Defendant Servants of the Paraclete: 5 MILLER, STRATVERT, TORGERSON & SCHLENKER, P.A. 6 P.O. Box 25687 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87125 7 BY: ALAN K. KONRAD, ESQ. 8 For the Defendant Lovelace Institutes: 9 RODEY, DICKASON, SLOAN, AKIN & ROBB, P.A. P.O. Box 1888 10 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87103-1888 BY: TRAVIS R. COLLIER, ESQ. 11 For the Defendants Pecos Benedictine Monastery, Sons 12 of the Holy Family: 13 MODRALL, SPERLING, ROEHL, HARRIS & SISK, P.A. P.O. Box 2168 14 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87103-2168 BY: KENNETH L. HARRIGAN, ESQ. 15 For the Defendant Greek Orthodox Archdiocese: 16 GUEBERT & YEOMANS, P.C. 17 4308 Carlisle Boulevard N.E., Suite 207 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107 18 BY: RICHARD D. YEOMANS, ESQ. 19 Also Present: 20 JERRY GOFFE 21 I N D E X PAGE 22 EXAMINATION OF ARCHBISHOP ROBERT F. SANCHEZ 23 By Mr. Tinkler 763 24 DEPONENT SIGNATURE/CORRECTION PAGE, VOLUME V 984 25 CERTIFICATE OF COMPLETION OF DEPOSITION 985 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 757 1 EXHIBITS FORMALLY MARKED/IDENTIFIED PAGE 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 758 1 EXHIBIT FORMALLY MARKED/IDENTIFIED PAGE 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 759 1 EXHIBITS FORMALLY MARKED/IDENTIFIED PAGE 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 760 1 EXHIBITS FORMALLY MARKED/IDENTIFIED PAGE 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 761 1 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the record. Your 2 Honor, Ladies and Gentlemen, the following deposition 3 is being videotaped in the presence of Cumbre Court 4 Reporters, by Jerry Goffe of Goffe Photographic 5 Associates, Albuquerque, New Mexico. 6 This deposition is being taken on October 7 3, 1994, at the Cristo Rey Convent, located at 5625 8 Isleta Boulevard, SW, Albuquerque, New Mexico, in the 9 matter of Jane and John Does, Plaintiffs, vs. The 10 Roman Catholic Church of the Archdiocese of Santa Fe, 11 Inc., et al., Cases CV-93-02879, and all others filed 12 by Attorneys Merit Bennett and Stephen Tinkler, filed 13 in the Second Judicial District, State of New Mexico, 14 County of Bernalillo. 15 The deponent is Archbishop Robert Sanchez. 16 The time, as indicated on the screen, is 9:31. 17 Counsel will now state their appearances. 18 MR. TINKLER: Stephen Tinkler for 19 Plaintiff John and Jane Does. 20 MR. BENNETT: Merit Bennett for the 21 Plaintiffs. 22 MR. REESE: Bob Reese for the Plaintiffs. 23 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Richard Winterbottom, 24 the Archbishop. 25 MS. KENNEDY: Karen Kennedy for the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 762 1 Archdiocese of Santa Fe. 2 MR. YEOMANS: Rick Yeomans for the 3 Defendant Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of North and 4 South America. 5 MR. HARRIGAN: Ken Harrigan for the 6 Defendant Pecos Benedictine Monastery, in Causes 7 5042, 5054, and 7031, and also appearing for 8 Sons of the Holy Family in Causes 5045 and 5052. 9 I want the record to be clear that Sons of 10 the Holy Family intends to attack personal 11 jurisdiction over them by the State of New Mexico, 12 and my representation of them at this deposition is 13 not intended to be a waiver of that defense. 14 And I also want to put on the record that 15 neither they nor I ever received notice of this 16 deposition, but we will proceed, nevertheless, if 17 it's understood that our appearance and participation 18 is not a waiver of personal jurisdiction. 19 MR. KONRAD: Alan Konrad for Servants of 20 the Paraclete. 21 MR. COLLIER: Travis Collier for Lovelace 22 Institutes. 23 MR. BEACH: Arthur Beach, Archdiocese of 24 Santa Fe. 25 MR. KIERST: Peter Kierst on behalf of the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 763 1 Archdiocese of Santa Fe. 2 ARCHBISHOP ROBERT F. SANCHEZ, 3 after having been first duly sworn or affirmed under 4 oath, was questioned and testified as follows: 5 EXAMINATION 6 BY MR. TINKLER: 7 Q. Archbishop Sanchez, I think in the last 8 deposition -- 9 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Mr. Tinkler, before we 10 begin let me put -- 11 MR. TINKLER: Do you want to do this? 12 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: -- on the record -- 13 yeah, why don't I just get this done? 14 Mr. Goffe has stated correctly that this 15 deposition is, first, to cover and include all cases 16 filed by your law firm and Mr. Bennett's law firm 17 that have been filed to date. The notice, the fourth 18 amended notice, did not include two cases recently 19 filed, which we would add to the caption. Those 20 would be 94-07716 and CV-94-07977. 21 Secondly, because this is the continuation 22 of the deposition taken of the Archbishop from 23 January 12, 1994, through January 15, 1994, I have, 24 with the consent of all counsel present, entered an 25 Unopposed Protective Order, or Judge Robert Thompson CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 764 1 did, and that was entered on September 29, 1994, and 2 it incorporates the two protective orders previously 3 entered by Judge Ashby, the first filed on March 26, 4 1993, and the second one filed on January 12, 1994, 5 and I have endorsed copies of both those protective 6 orders and the one entered incorporating those 7 protective orders by Judge Thompson, which I will 8 attach to the deposition as Exhibit 15. Thank you. 9 And if anyone needs -- has not received 10 copies of those, I have extra copies for you. 11 MR. TINKLER: Also, for the record, we had 12 previously sent out requests for production of 13 documents relative to all the priest files, 14 particularly the ones that we have filed claims 15 against, as well as a general request for all priest 16 -- files of priests files who have had pedophilic 17 allegations made against them. 18 This morning Mr. Beach did deliver several 19 priest files to us. I think he delivered the file 20 for John Esquibel, Clive Lynn, Ed Donelan, and 21 Anthony Gallegos. 22 No other files that were set forth in our 23 letter dated September 23, 1994, to Mr. Beach and 24 Miss Kennedy have been delivered. I think the 25 request for production of documents was technically CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 765 1 due yesterday. We had also written to counsel, 2 asking them to try and expedite production of these 3 files so that we could try and cover all matters in 4 this deposition, and we will attempt to do so, and if 5 more files are forthcoming, we will attempt to review 6 those at night and question on those. 7 MR. BEACH: Let me respond briefly to 8 that. In addition, previously we provided you with 9 two additional files, Jason Sigler and Sabine Griego, 10 if I'm not mistaken. So you have those. We didn't 11 give them to you a second time. You already have 12 them. 13 The remainder of the files you asked for, 14 we don't have. We do not have any file on a 15 , on a , or a . In 16 addition, two of the priests you asked for files on, 17 and , are Order priests, 18 and we do not have a file on them either, at least 19 none that we've been able to locate. 20 And so we have produced for you the files 21 on all of the priests that you have asked for in your 22 request for production of documents to which we 23 responded to. 24 MR. TINKLER: How about Roger Martinez? 25 MR. BEACH: Roger Martinez is not a priest CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 766 1 named in the caption of that file, the request. 2 In addition, just for the record, you 3 indicated they were due yesterday. Yesterday was a 4 Sunday. 5 MR. TINKLER: Well, I know that. 6 MR. BEACH: And today is Monday. So I 7 think technically today is the day that they're due. 8 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: No requests for 9 production have been served on the Archbishop. We 10 set this deposition, I believe, at least three months 11 ago. It's been pending. We've been as cooperative 12 as we could to produce him in a timely manner and set 13 this up at some considerable expense to many of the 14 parties in this case. 15 I produced him with the idea, as I made 16 clear to both plaintiffs' counsel, that this 17 deposition will include everything that is now 18 pending against the Archbishop and the Archdiocese. 19 If there is some doubt in your mind that 20 because you have been unable to review the materials 21 that are produced, or because there's some claim that 22 you have that in fact the production is inadequate, 23 then I think you ought to consider continuing this 24 deposition until such time as you're fully prepared, 25 because we plan to produce the Archbishop for this CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 767 1 week, and we will resist any other efforts to produce 2 him for deposition in the cases that are now filed. 3 And if that's not the case, then let's 4 proceed. If you have some problems with the nature 5 of your discovery to date, and I suggest that those 6 problems cannot possibly be with the Archbishop, then 7 as much as I regret to do this, I don't see any other 8 prospect but continuing the deposition until you're 9 satisfied and ready and prepared to take it. 10 MR. TINKLER: Well, we're prepared to take 11 the deposition. I'm just making a record on what 12 documents we've received and what we haven't 13 received. 14 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: If you're prepared to 15 proceed, let's do it. 16 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) In the last deposition, 17 you were referred to as "Archbishop" throughout the 18 deposition; is that -- 19 A. Right. 20 Q. -- is that okay with you? 21 A. That's comfortable, certainly. 22 Q. What have you been doing since the last 23 deposition? 24 A. As I indicated in my former deposition, I 25 am spending time in a religious community. I CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 768 1 celebrate the Eucharist with the community daily, 2 lead them in other prayer services that we have. I 3 preach to them, and we do have discussions on Sacred 4 Scriptures together. So it's an intensification of 5 our own spirituality. 6 I do a lot of manual work in the grounds 7 that they have. I feel that I need to cooperate with 8 that. So basically my life has been spent as a 9 member of a religious community, not formally as 10 such, but informally they've welcomed me that way. 11 Q. And what is the religious community? 12 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I'll object. We have, 13 pursuant to the protective order, been protected from 14 disclosing the Archbishop's presence, whereabouts, 15 and we'll continue with that assumption in that order 16 that he need not disclose his present place of 17 residence. 18 MR. TINKLER: I don't agree with -- I 19 don't think that's in the order anywhere. 20 MS. KENNEDY: We're not going to answer; 21 so you can move on. 22 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: We're not going to 23 answer. You can take it up with the judge. 24 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) The religious community 25 where you're residing, is it affiliated with the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 769 1 Catholic Church? 2 A. Oh, yes, yes, very much so. 3 Q. Is it an order? 4 A. Yes. There are religious -- when we use 5 the word religious community, it's normally another 6 word for religious order, yes. 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. And you've indicated you celebrate the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 770 1 Eucharist with the members of the community? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Do you still have all of your faculties? 4 A. I do have the faculties. I have not 5 exercised them in any public manner. For instance, I 6 have not baptized or confirmed and so forth. I have 7 celebrated the Eucharist. 8 Q. So since you've left Santa Fe in March or 9 April of 1993, you've not celebrated public Mass? 10 A. No, not out publicly, no. 11 Q. Has anyone indicated to you within the 12 Church that you're not permitted to do that? 13 A. No, there has been no direct order at all, 14 no. 15 Q. Have you had any discussions with any of 16 your superiors with regards to celebrating Mass? 17 A. No, we haven't really discussed that in 18 particular at all. 19 Q. Who is it that you report to? 20 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. It's 21 vague. It assumes matters not in evidence, and to 22 the extent that it is designed or may reveal the 23 Archbishop's present residence, I'm instructing him 24 not to answer. He can answer without revealing where 25 he is residing. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 771 1 And you can go ahead. 2 THE WITNESS: I have not been given a 3 designated individual to whom I would report. 4 Normally, the person that I should report to, if you 5 want to call it an authority over me, would be the 6 Pope's representative in this country. He is called 7 the Pro Nuncio. His name is Archbishop Augustine 8 Cacivillan. And I better spell that for you. It's 9 C-A-C-I-V-I-L-L-A-N. 10 Q. And he's in Washington, D.C.; is that 11 correct? 12 A. Yes. He's the Papal Nuncio there in 13 Washington. 14 Q. Have you had any conversations with any of 15 the representatives of the Archdiocese of Santa Fe 16 other than attorneys since the last deposition? 17 A. Not regarding any of this at all, no. 18 Q. What, if anything, did you do to prepare 19 for the deposition? 20 A. I tried to review the deposition that we 21 had last January. It was quite lengthy, as you well 22 know. I read what I could. And then I met with Mr. 23 Winterbottom, Miss Kennedy, and Mr. Beach, for them 24 to update me as to what cases we were going to be 25 talking about and so forth. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 772 1 Q. Did you review any documents? 2 A. Just the deposition that we went through 3 last January. 4 Q. You didn't review any files that were from 5 the Archdiocese of Santa Fe? 6 A. I didn't have any files, no. 7 Q. I want to go back a little bit. I'll try 8 not to ask you questions that were already asked, but 9 historically, if you could kind of tell me, because 10 it wasn't clear to me from the last deposition, some 11 of your early life, some more details about that 12 before you went into the seminary. Is it correct 13 that you went to the seminary from high school? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And prior to -- do you recall when it was 16 that you decided to be a priest or that you were 17 interested in being a priest? 18 A. The interest began as early as the sixth 19 grade, but like most young men, those are interests 20 in a variety of things, but my interest began at that 21 age. 22 Q. Did you date in high school? 23 A. I was in a public high school for my 24 freshman year, a Catholic high school my sophomore 25 year. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 773 1 but I was very much 2 active with the class and the classmates in all of 3 our activities and pretty much a normal teenager 4 going to high school. 5 Q. What about your junior and senior year? 6 A. I entered the seminary as a junior year, 7 in my junior year. So the type of activity that we 8 would have normally had in high school as juniors and 9 seniors, we did not have in the seminary, obviously. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 774 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 775 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Q. As you were growing up in New Mexico, what 10 interests did you develop outside of the priest -- 11 you know, the interest in the church? 12 A. I've always been one that's been engaged 13 in athletics; so all kinds of sports interested me 14 greatly. They still do. Not only competitive sports 15 such as basketball, football, baseball, track, but I 16 also enjoy the mountains of New Mexico very much, 17 hiking, skiing, fishing, hunting. 18 Q. Did you have, educationally, when you were 19 going to high school and the seminary, did you have 20 any particular interest in history? 21 A. History, especially from ancient history, 22 medieval history, was interesting to me. So I would 23 try to read novels about it. 24 Q. Did you have any particular interest in 25 New Mexico history that related to your culture, how CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 776 1 it related to your culture? 2 A. Not at that time. The interest developed 3 later in my life. 4 Q. Did it develop in your life after you 5 became Archbishop? 6 A. Yes, I would say about that time. 7 Q. Other than what you've just described, 8 were there any other hobbies or interests that you 9 can think of that you had prior to entering into the 10 seminary? 11 A. I don't intend the subjects that I listed 12 as an exclusive listing. There's -- I'm sure there's 13 many other interests that I have that I'm not 14 thinking of right offhand. These come to mind that I 15 have mentioned to you. 16 I've taken an interest in places that are 17 old or ruins. Many of the ruins of New Mexico have 18 become interesting to me to try to read about, what 19 was their life like, what do the ruins say to us 20 today, things of that nature. 21 Q. Did you have an interest in learning about 22 the history of the church before you ever entered the 23 seminary? 24 A. No. I was too young at that time to have 25 that particular interest. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 777 1 Q. While you were in the seminary and 2 thereafter, did you develop an interest in the 3 history of the church or not? 4 A. You mean by "church," do you mean local 5 church -- 6 Q. Well, Roman Catholic church. 7 A. -- or the universal church? Well, being a 8 Roman Catholic and entering into the seminary, I 9 certainly had an interest in the history of the 10 Church because you study the Sacred Scriptures and 11 the whole acts of the apostles as the history of the 12 early Church; so I became quite, you know, interested 13 in that. 14 Q. I understand you had certain courses that 15 you had to take that covered that, but I was trying 16 to discover whether you really had a personal 17 interest other than having been required to study 18 those type of things? 19 A. No, not during my seminary years. You're 20 so involved in all the theological studies, you don't 21 have much time for real personal interests like 22 that. But I did study the history of the Church as 23 part of our theological requirements. 24 Q. Can you recall -- I think last time in 25 your deposition, you indicated that probably your CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 778 1 closest friend in the priesthood was Leo Lucero, 2 Father Leo Lucero? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Were there others in the Archdiocese of 5 Santa Fe in the early years before you became 6 Archbishop that you would consider friends rather 7 than acquaintances? 8 A. One in particular would be, at that time, 9 was Father Arthur Tafoya. Presently he is Bishop 10 Arthur Tafoya, bishop of Pueblo, Colorado. 11 Q. When you referred to Leo Lucero and Arthur 12 Tafoya as friends, were they individuals that you 13 would socialize with outside your priestly duties? 14 A. Yes. We could take our day off together, 15 go to the mountains together, fish together, go 16 hiking together. 17 Q. And did they remain your friends in that 18 same capacity after you became the archbishop? 19 A. They remained close friends, although I 20 did not have the time to spend with them as much as I 21 would have liked to. 22 Q. Were there other individuals, once you 23 became Archbishop, who became new close friends? 24 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Are you speaking about 25 priests or -- CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 779 1 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Priests, yes, within the 2 Archdiocese. 3 A. Just one because we shared a common 4 interest, and that is Father Richard Olona, who is 5 currently the Chancellor of the Archdiocese. He is 6 an avid fisherman, and so I enjoyed his company when 7 we would go fishing together. 8 Q. Did you become close friends with Father 9 Sabine Griego? 10 A. No, I did not. He was -- I would call him 11 a friend, as I would call 100 of our priests friends, 12 but they were not in the same category at all as 13 Bishop Arthur Tafoya, Father Leo Lucero or even 14 Father Richard Olona. 15 Q. Did you ever socialize at all with Father 16 Griego? 17 A. Never outside of a function that was 18 associated with church. He would invite me to his 19 rectory when he was celebrating -- well, not a 20 celebration, but he would invite the teachers of his 21 school, for instance, for a thank you dinner at the 22 end of the year, an appreciation dinner. He would 23 ask -- he said, "If you can drop by, they would 24 appreciate seeing you." If I had a chance, I would 25 drop by for that. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 780 1 On one occasion he invited me to a 2 tamale-making party at Christmastime. The women of 3 the parish were there all in line making tamales; and 4 so I joined for that occasion. 5 He would invite me, as he did many 6 priests, to have lunch if we happened to be in the 7 area with them, since they had a large group of 8 people from their staff having lunch, and I must have 9 had lunch with him three or four times that way where 10 a number of the priests were present. 11 Q. In these various examples you just gave, 12 were they when Father Griego was in Las Vegas? 13 A. No. The ones I'm giving you now are 14 examples that I am recently recalling. That was in 15 Albuquerque. 16 In Las Vegas, I seldom ever saw him. 17 First of all, I didn't know him. I did not meet 18 Father until I was stationed in Mosquero at that 19 time, but practically never saw him because our paths 20 just didn't cross. He was a priest in Las Vegas. 21 Q. You met him in 1968; isn't that when you 22 went to Roy? 23 A. Yes, I was in Roy in 1968. 24 Q. That's when you first met him because you 25 were in the same deanery; is that correct? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 781 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. In the deanery, did you get to know him 3 better during the next three years before you moved 4 back to Albuquerque? 5 A. Not well. Those years he was functioning, 6 I believe, as the chaplain at the State Hospital, and 7 so he really wasn't that intimate with the parish. 8 The person that I would see when I would 9 come to Las Vegas at that time was Father -- well, 10 he's now Monsignor Sipio Salas. He was in the other 11 parish. 12 I would see Father Griego with his pastor, 13 Father Burke, at Our Lady of Sorrows parish, but it 14 wasn't often. You just don't have that opportunity. 15 Q. Did there come a time when your 16 relationship with Father Griego was closer than those 17 first few years? 18 A. When I became Archbishop, which was some 19 11 years later, I was then -- I had to meet him, 20 well, because he was the pastor at that time of Our 21 Lady of Sorrows, and I was making my pastoral visits 22 as well as confirmation visits to every parish. And 23 so you get a chance at that time to meet the pastors, 24 to see the work that they're doing. And so you have 25 those opportunities. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 782 1 Q. How about Father Esquibel, did you know 2 him in any social way? 3 A. Even less because he was not pastor for 4 several years and never really socialized with Father 5 Esquibel at all on any occasion that I can recall. 6 When he did become a pastor, in fact in Los Lunas, we 7 would have a reception after, say, confirmation, and 8 whatever socializing you do with the people and with 9 him at that time, that's what I would have. 10 Q. And did you ever socialize with Father 11 Esquibel and Father Griego together, the three of 12 you? 13 A. No. There was never an occasion where the 14 three of us would have to socialize or have an 15 opportunity to socialize. Father Esquibel was just 16 not that close. I was his superior as his 17 archbishop, but we didn't have anything in common 18 that we would want to socialize about. 19 Q. Any other individual priest that you can 20 recall other than Father Lucero and Father Olona that 21 were close friends? 22 A. Yeah. Perhaps one other, but I wouldn't 23 say, maybe once a year with him, that was Monsignor 24 Salas, Monsignor Sipio Salas. He had been a teacher 25 of mine in the seminary, and so I had great respect CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 783 1 for him. And he would call and say, "Why don't we go 2 and play a game of golf together sometime?" I am not 3 an avid golf player, but if they invite me out twice 4 a year, I'll try and get out with them. But he was 5 kind enough to do that just to get me out of the 6 office. 7 Q. And I take it that when you did socialize, 8 it was the various situations we've already talked 9 about, fishing, sports activities, that kind of 10 thing? 11 A. Yes, right. 12 Q. When you took over as the archbishop in 13 1974, what did you do with respect to the existing 14 policies that may have been in place from Archbishop 15 Davis? Did you review those policies? 16 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. It assumes 17 that there were policies. 18 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Okay. Were there any 19 policies? 20 A. No, there were no written policies that 21 had been established for guidance, you know, of 22 various functions of the Archdiocese. We had no 23 written personnel policies, no written financial 24 policies. Things were handled ad hoc, you might say, 25 and in a traditional manner, I think, the accepted CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 784 1 functions had to be followed. 2 To a great extent, many of those functions 3 are governed by the Code of Canon Law -- you have a 4 copy right there -- and we try to accommodate 5 whatever limitations we have in our administration to 6 the code. 7 Q. Other than accommodating the code, were 8 there any just practical policies in place; in other 9 words, if such-and-such happens, this is how we deal 10 with it? 11 MS. KENNEDY: I'm going to object as vague 12 and ambiguous, unless you indicate perhaps the 13 subject of the policies that you are seeking, you 14 know, if the fire alarm goes off, what do you do. Is 15 it any kind of policy that has to do with anything, 16 or are you looking for a kind of policy? So my 17 objection is vague and ambiguous. 18 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Any policies with 19 respect to the administration of the Archdiocese? 20 A. There were some general policies for the 21 education department because they had to follow state 22 department guidelines for the administration of 23 Catholic schools; and so those policies had to be 24 followed. I do not recall any policies, any written 25 policies, certainly, and I was unaware of any CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 785 1 policies, since I did not really -- I was not privy 2 to the Archbishop's mind or how he had handled things 3 in his administration. He was not one who depended a 4 lot upon committees for his decisions. It was sort 5 of a different age in the church at that time. 6 Q. By that you mean that he made most of his 7 decisions himself without counsel? 8 A. He was an individual, yes. 9 Q. Did you inquire of Bishop Davis or anyone 10 else within the Archdiocese as to what the 11 relationship was between the Servants of the 12 Paraclete and the Archdiocese? 13 A. No, I had no occasion to inquire as to 14 that relationship. I knew that it was a religious 15 community that existed in the Archdiocese, had been 16 founded there. I wanted to meet all of the religious 17 communities that were members of the Archdiocese; so 18 I also met whoever the superiors were at that time of 19 the Servants of the Paraclete. 20 Q. You went around and introduced yourself? 21 A. Exactly. And I would arrange, you know, 22 for a gathering at least to present myself to them. 23 And that was pro forma. I did that with each of the 24 various religious communities. I did that with each 25 of the parishes. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 786 1 Q. With respect to the Servants of the 2 Paraclete, when you became the archbishop, do you 3 recall who the superiors were? 4 A. I can see the face, but I can't recall the 5 name. I apologize. If you have some names to 6 suggest, I'm sure that it would ring a bell, and I 7 could say yes or no to them, but offhand I just can't 8 recall. 9 Q. Do you recall having any discussions with 10 any of the superiors of the Servants of the Paraclete 11 regarding the relationship between the Servants and 12 the Archdiocese? 13 A. No. 14 Q. When you say no, does that mean you don't 15 believe any such discussions occurred, or you just 16 don't remember? 17 A. I do not recall any specific discussions, 18 and I don't believe they occurred, because I didn't 19 get the knowledge that otherwise I would have 20 understood what the relationship was or its history. 21 I never bothered to learn the history, actually. 22 No, I can't recall any meeting of that 23 nature where we would discuss the history or the 24 specific relationship. I think that our gatherings 25 together were simply, "How are things going?" That CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 787 1 was it. 2 Q. Did you have any discussions with the 3 Chancellor of the Archdiocese regarding the 4 relationship between Servants of the Paraclete and 5 the Archdiocese of Santa Fe? 6 A. No, no, we never had any discussions in 7 that regard. I'm not even certain whether he was 8 aware of the history of the Servants of the 9 Paraclete, but we had no discussions that I can 10 recall. 11 Q. But I wasn't referring to the history. I 12 meant the history of the relationship between the 13 Archdiocese and the Servants of the Paraclete, how 14 they worked with each other. 15 A. No. The Servants of the Paraclete are an 16 independent religious community. They lived up in 17 the Jemez Springs area, and except for any request 18 they would have of me or any occasion that we might 19 have to deal with them on a specific issue, they 20 simply operated their own monastery and their work 21 independently of ourselves. And that's the way each 22 religious community exists. 23 Q. You did testify in your last deposition 24 regarding the way you personally handled priests that 25 were referred to the Servants of the Paraclete, and CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 788 1 I'm wondering, how did you determine the procedure 2 you were going to utilize? Was it based on 3 experience, or did you just make it up? 4 A. What procedure are you referring to? 5 Q. Well, for instance, if a priest were going 6 to be referred to the Servants of the Paraclete, what 7 was the procedure that you followed to handle that 8 situation? 9 A. Well, if we had decided that a priest 10 should go up to the Servants of the Paraclete, it 11 would require a phone call, making contact with 12 whoever would be in charge, letting them know that we 13 would like them to receive a priest perhaps for an 14 evaluation, if that would be possible, and, if so, 15 when, when should he report there, how many days 16 should he anticipate. So the information would be 17 discussed verbally. 18 Q. And would you be the individual that had 19 that discussion, or would it be someone that you 20 directed to have the discussion? 21 A. Occasionally, it might be myself. If I 22 would make a call, for instance, and I could not 23 contact anyone who could assume that authority, then 24 I might just let that be handled by the chancellor, 25 yeah. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 789 1 Q. After this initial phone call would be 2 made and the standard procedure, would there be a 3 letter that followed that phone call confirming the 4 information in the phone call? 5 A. Not necessarily. Once the confirmation is 6 made on the phone, and they agreed to certain times 7 and dates, then you just followed it up, and the man 8 goes up. 9 Q. Was there a procedure that you followed 10 once the man went up to the Servants, as far as 11 keeping track of what was going on? 12 A. I would imagine the second step would be, 13 you know, from the Servants. They would then inform 14 me whether they felt the man should continue with the 15 program there at the Servants, or they felt that 16 there was no need for that, and things would go on. 17 Now, I guess there's a radical difference 18 between what took place in very early years and what 19 has happened more recently because I am just 20 recalling that in those very early years, the 21 Servants did not do any therapeutic treatment at 22 their own center but apparently had men go to other 23 centers, other professionals, either private 24 practitioners, therapists in the community, or one of 25 the centers that would be available for that purpose. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 790 1 Q. And by the "early years," what years are 2 you referring to? 3 A. Oh, I would say throughout the '70's 4 perhaps. Now, that's -- I'm just speculating, I 5 can't recall, but I would assume that in those years 6 of the '70's, they may have had that practice. I 7 think during the '80's, if I'm not mistaken, they had 8 therapeutic treatment at the centers. 9 Q. And if an individual during the '70's was 10 referred to the Servants for evaluation, and the 11 Servants recommended that the priest get therapy but 12 reside at the Servants' location, were you kept 13 abreast of what was going on? 14 A. No. There was very little, if any, 15 communication on the individual, and that's 16 understandable since the individual was under the 17 care and, therefore, under the -- what should I say 18 -- professional -- what's the word I'm seeking? -- 19 professional protection of the therapist. And the 20 therapist never spoke to me. I never would know who 21 the therapist was that was in fact dealing with 22 Father X. 23 They would report, perhaps, directly to 24 the community of the Servants of the Paraclete, and 25 the Paraclete community would then communicate with CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 791 1 me, but normally that would be at the exit interview, 2 not during the time of therapy. 3 Q. Not during the course of therapy? 4 A. Exactly. 5 Q. Well, in that situation, on an exit 6 interview, would the communication you just described 7 be in writing? 8 A. Normally, it was an interview much like 9 this. We would sit together, and it would be 10 verbally communicated. I don't recall right offhand 11 any summary of the exit interview. It would be done, 12 I suppose, with an eye to confidentiality, since the 13 individual was speaking, and perhaps they preferred 14 not to put that in writing. 15 Q. Did you ever receive during the '70's 16 correspondence from the Servants of the Paraclete? 17 A. Any kind of correspondence? 18 Q. Any kind of correspondence. 19 A. Oh, yes, uh-huh, sure. 20 Q. Did you have a file within the Archdiocese 21 records that was labeled the "Servants of the 22 Paraclete"? 23 A. I'm sure we did. We had a file on all 24 religious communities. 25 Q. Do you know what your filing system was CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 792 1 while you were Archbishop with regard to what went in 2 the Servants of the Paraclete file? 3 A. We didn't have a system as such. 4 Communications came in. If it was more than a simple 5 inquiry, something that I felt needed to be referred 6 to at a later date, I would give that to my secretary 7 for filing purposes. 8 Q. And then would you direct her as to what 9 file to place the document in? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Do you recall any procedures that you 12 personally utilized to file documents regarding a 13 priest who had gone to the Servants of the Paraclete 14 and had been returned to the Archdiocese as to where 15 documents would be filed with regard to that priest? 16 A. If there was a document pertaining to an 17 individual, that document would normally go into the 18 priest's file, not into the Servants' file. 19 Q. Do you recall what types of documents 20 would go into the Servants' file? 21 A. Communications from the Servants regarding 22 change of superiors, they were informing me that a 23 new superior had been elected. They would inform me 24 the new director of the house or of the community was 25 appointed, their own personnel changes that way. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 793 1 There was some communication, I believe, 2 regarding the request of Rome for approval as a 3 pontifical religious community; so that their 4 authority would come directly from the Sacred 5 Congregation for Religious in Rome rather than from 6 myself. 7 And there is a procedure toward that, and 8 there would have been communication for things of 9 that nature, perhaps informing me of building of a 10 new building or opening of a new program in one of 11 their houses. So general administrative information 12 like that would have come, and those items would have 13 been placed in the Servants of the Paraclete file. 14 Q. Is it fair to say that documents that were 15 received from the Paraclete that did not involve a 16 particular priest but were of a general nature would 17 go into the Servants of the Paraclete file? 18 A. Yes. And that wasn't very often. There 19 wasn't much communication. But those documents would 20 go into that file. 21 Q. Do you remember if that file was in 22 existence when you became the archbishop? 23 A. I couldn't answer that because I didn't 24 make a file. My secretary would have taken care of 25 that, but I would have to assume that there was one CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 794 1 in existence because the Paracletes had been in 2 existence since around 1950. So there would have to 3 be some kind of file. 4 Q. Do you remember back -- I know this is a 5 long time ago -- whether you, at any point in your 6 early days as Archbishop, made a review of the 7 existing files of the Archdiocese? 8 A. No, I did not take time to review the 9 files of the Servants of the Paraclete or files in 10 general. This takes time. 11 Q. So there was no general review by you? 12 A. No, no, there was not. 13 Q. I believe your secretary was also 14 Archbishop Davis's secretary; is that correct? 15 A. Yes. She was his secretary for, I don't 16 know whether his whole term or not. I could not 17 answer that. But she was my secretary when I took 18 over, and I kept her on until her retirement, I 19 believe around 1991 or '92, um-hm. 20 Q. And when you became the archbishop and she 21 was already an employee, did you give her any 22 directions as to how you wanted the system to work, 23 the filing system or the administrative system, that 24 might be different than the existing one, or did you 25 just say "Keep it the way you're doing it"? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 795 1 A. I think she gave me instructions on how 2 those things -- you know, secretaries are very 3 competent, and she obviously was a very competent 4 woman, and I think that she had a system going that 5 was very effective, and so she followed that system. 6 Q. So you didn't see any need, nor did you 7 make any changes in the existing system? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Do you recall whether you reviewed the 10 Servants of the Paraclete file at any point during 11 the time you were Archbishop? 12 A. No, I did not. 13 Q. And have you reviewed the Paraclete file 14 at any time since you've left Santa Fe? 15 A. To this day? 16 MR. KONRAD: I need to object. I think 17 that assumes that he has testified that there was a 18 file, and I don't think -- he said he assumes there 19 was a file, but he doesn't know. 20 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Assuming that your 21 assumption is correct that there is a file, have you 22 at any point in time ever reviewed such a file? 23 A. I have not. 24 Q. With respect to the issue of sending 25 priests to the Servants of the Paraclete, was there a CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 796 1 procedure that you went through as Archbishop before 2 that decision was ever made as to whether to refer a 3 priest to the Servants? 4 A. You would have to ask me about a period 5 because I think that there's been an evolution in our 6 own handling of individuals like this. And I think 7 that if you're speaking about at a time even, say, in 8 the '70's, there was not a great -- if the person 9 gave evidence of needing counseling, guidance in his 10 life, his interpersonal skills were obviously very, 11 in a sense, crude, they were not refined in relating 12 to people, he was a person that was insulting, that 13 would involve a personal discussion with myself, 14 normally with another person present, and then a 15 directive would be given. The priest would accept 16 the request, the offer, a call would be placed to 17 the Servants of the Paraclete, and action would be 18 taken. 19 Q. Did you ever consult with the Personnel 20 Board regarding the assignment of a priest to the 21 Servants of the Paraclete? 22 A. Normally, the issue, in other words, the 23 concern for an individual priest would have been 24 discussed there because of problems that had surfaced 25 with his administration as a priest. And out of that CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 797 1 concern would have been service by the board to the 2 point where I thought that the man needed assistance, 3 he needed counseling, more than simply a talk with 4 myself. I'm not a therapist. And so I certainly 5 could not take the time to help him. 6 Q. So you did actually consult with the 7 Personnel Board regarding a priest that needed 8 counseling? 9 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. That's not 10 the Archbishop's testimony. The Archbishop said it 11 may have happened on occasion, but it wasn't 12 necessarily a policy, as I understand the testimony. 13 THE WITNESS: Normally, it was concerns of 14 the administration. The men were -- the Personnel 15 Board was concerned with the effective and successful 16 administration of our pastors in their parochial 17 assignments. And if there were problems that way, 18 then let's address them to see what can be done to 19 correct it. If it requires a transfer, a transfer 20 would occur. If it requires education, let's try to 21 provide education. If it needed counseling, let's 22 provide some kind of guidance for the man. 23 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) So are you saying this 24 type of consultation with the Personnel Board 25 happened regularly or just on rare occasion? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 798 1 A. We wouldn't be dealing with problems all 2 the time. Most of our concern was with trying to 3 have proper pastors assigned to parishes where they 4 could do the most effective work, and to be assisted 5 by another priest who could work with them well and 6 try to get the work going that way. But when a 7 problem would arise, then you have to handle it. 8 Q. And my question is, did you handle it with 9 the advice of the Personnel Board, those kinds of 10 problems? 11 A. I would say that -- I cannot say 12 categorically that every single problem was handled 13 that way because I can't recall every single one, but 14 problems of personnel normally were discussed with 15 the Personnel Board. 16 Q. And when you first became archbishop, were 17 minutes taken of the Personnel Board meetings? 18 A. I think when we refer to minutes, that 19 might be a relative understanding. We did not have a 20 court reporter or a professional secretary taking 21 minutes. We considered the actions of the Personnel 22 Board to be confidential; so we would simply invite 23 one of the priests to keep notes, but the notes would 24 not be of discussion because the man had to involve 25 himself in discussion. Normally what would be put CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 799 1 down would be the actions taken, the recommendations 2 that they would make to me for personnel transfers or 3 changes. 4 Q. And would those notes be typed? 5 A. They would be hand-taken, obviously, 6 during the meeting. At subsequent times, some would 7 be typed, and some would not, depending on the 8 individual priest and his abilities. Some priests 9 were very good at their reporting of minutes. Others 10 were not that good. 11 Q. But was it always a practice, at least 12 while you were Archbishop, to have some effort made 13 towards keeping minutes? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And was a file created during your time as 16 Archbishop simply called minutes of the Personnel 17 Board meetings or something like that? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Do you recall how long you were on the 20 Personnel Board before you became Archbishop? 21 A. I think I served for one, possibly two 22 years. It may have been 1971, '72, something like 23 that. 24 Q. Is your memory on that somewhat unclear? 25 A. Well, I recall that I belonged to the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 800 1 Personnel Board when I was at San Felipe, but I don't 2 recall -- there was an occasion at that time where, 3 when I was on the board, that I recall I was in San 4 Felipe, but then I think the Personnel Board 5 disbanded, and I don't think anybody belonged to it 6 for a while. So that's why I say that I think I may 7 have belonged to it only for one, possibly two years, 8 but it wasn't more than that. 9 Q. The time that you were on the Personnel 10 Board, was it one term, whatever the length of that 11 term was, without interruption? 12 A. The term is normally, at least I think it 13 was at that time, a three-year term, but, as I say, I 14 think the Personnel Board disbanded, and therefore 15 none of us really finished out our terms. 16 Q. So you recall, if I'm hearing you 17 correctly, you recall being on the Personnel Board, 18 and then the Personnel Board disbanding, and then 19 never rejoining? 20 A. That's right. 21 Q. Is that correct? 22 A. That's right. 23 Q. And do you -- 24 A. We were elected to it, actually. 25 Q. When you were elected, was it out of your CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 801 1 deanery that you were elected? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And was that when you were in Roy? 4 A. No. I was in Albuquerque. 5 Q. In Albuquerque. Do you recall -- 6 (Exhibit 16 was marked for 7 identification.) 8 I'm marking Deposition Exhibit 16. I 9 doubt that you've looked at this recently, if at 10 all. Would you look at that document briefly? 11 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Can we go off the 12 record a moment? 13 (A discussion was held off the record.) 14 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Archbishop, have you had 15 an opportunity to review Exhibit 16? 16 A. Yes, I did. 17 Q. Do you recall ever seeing that document 18 before? 19 A. Not this specific document, no. 20 Q. Do you recognize the form of the document? 21 A. The form of the document is one that the 22 Archdiocese has used for inquiries to priests as to 23 their personnel preferences. It contains a variety 24 of statements and questions as to how they feel 25 they're -- if they're happy in their present CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 802 1 position, if they're anticipating a transfer, if they 2 prefer one, or what their interest may be. So it's 3 more just to indicate to the Personnel Board their 4 own personal feelings regarding their assignment. 5 Q. So this document is the type of document 6 that would be reviewed by the Personnel Board? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Could you turn to the last page of Exhibit 9 16? I think it's question 13. Do you see that? 10 A. Um-hm. 11 Q. By the way, this is the document that was 12 prepared by Sabine Griego; is that correct? Is that 13 his signature on the last page? 14 A. Yes. 15 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Excuse me, Archbishop, 16 you've never seen this document until today, I 17 believe? 18 THE WITNESS: I have not, no. 19 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Do you know his 20 signature? 21 A. Yes, it's his signature. 22 Q. What's the date of the signature? 23 A. October 25, 1969. 24 Q. And at question 13, I believe it asks, if 25 I can summarize it, it asks if he has a preference as CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 803 1 to who he might want to deal with on the Personnel 2 Board; is that correct? 3 A. That's right. 4 Q. How does he answer that? 5 A. He says, "If you have a preference, kindly 6 state with whom," and he puts down my name, which 7 indicates that I was a member of the Personnel Board 8 then at that time in 1970. 9 Q. And actually it states on that printed 10 portion, it lists all the members of the Personnel 11 Board, doesn't it? 12 A. It does, uh-huh. 13 Q. And you were one as of October 25, 1969; 14 correct? 15 A. Right. 16 Q. Does that refresh your memory at all about 17 -- 18 A. Not an awful lot. 19 Q. -- your tenure? 20 A. I just -- you know, you're going back 25 21 years, and I can't tell you everything I did exactly 22 when. I know I did belong to the board at that time, 23 but the exact year I could not give to you, but 24 obviously I was a member of the board at that time. 25 If you have other documents such as this CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 804 1 that can help stimulate my memory, please produce 2 them so that I can -- if this is discovery, I'd like 3 to be able to help you, because the documents 4 certainly are better than a memory of 25 years. 5 (Exhibit 17 was marked for 6 identification.) 7 Q. I hand you what is marked as Exhibit 17. 8 Can you look at that document, please. I'll 9 represent to you that this came from your personnel 10 file. 11 A. Okay. 12 Q. Have you reviewed that letter? 13 A. I have not reviewed this letter, no. 14 Q. I mean did you just now review it? 15 A. Yes, uh-huh. 16 Q. Does that letter indicate to you that you 17 were the chairman of the Personnel Board as of 18 February 28, 1972? 19 A. Yes, it does. 20 Q. Does that refresh your memory as to how 21 long you served on the Personnel Board? 22 A. I could not recall I had served as early 23 as 1969, but I did recall, as I said, around '71 or 24 '72. And it was at this time when I was chairman 25 that the board was dissolved, in fact. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 805 1 Q. So sometime after February 28th of '72 is 2 when the board was dissolved? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Do you recall how long after that, after 5 you became chairman? 6 A. No, I don't. 7 Q. Do you recall the circumstances 8 surrounding the dissolution of the Personnel Board? 9 A. Not in specifics. I think there was just 10 disappointment in the board that some recommendations 11 of the board apparently were not being accepted by 12 the archbishop, and we felt that perhaps we were not 13 really functioning effectively, and he should feel 14 free to either initiate another board or do as he 15 chose. So the board dissolved. 16 Q. So are you saying that the board itself 17 voted to dissolve? 18 A. I think it was -- I can't recall exactly 19 whether it was a board motion or individuals chose to 20 simply submit their resignation, but, in fact, it did 21 dissolve. 22 Q. What were these decisions that were not 23 being followed by the archbishop? 24 A. I can't recall. Personnel, ordinary 25 personnel recommendations. I think at that time the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 806 1 very fact that we had a Personnel Board, which was 2 not old, that was not traditional in the Roman 3 Catholic Church. The very fact that we had a board, 4 we had assumed that perhaps we had more authority 5 than we really had. Basically, we were an advisory 6 board, but I think we were thinking that we should 7 have been more than that, and we hoped that the 8 archbishop would have taken our recommendations more 9 completely. And I think there was disappointment 10 over some recommendations. And so the board decided 11 to resign. 12 Q. Do you recall if you participated in any 13 discussions with Archbishop Davis regarding the 14 potential dissolution of the Personnel Board? 15 A. I don't recall meeting with him personally 16 concerning it. 17 Q. You were the chairman? 18 A. I was the chairman, yes. 19 Q. Do you know if there was any dialogue 20 between Archbishop Davis and any members of the 21 Personnel Board regarding a dissolution of the 22 Personnel Board? 23 A. No, I do not know. 24 Q. Do you recall whether Archbishop Davis 25 directed that the Personnel Board be dissolved? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 807 1 A. I do not recall that, no. 2 Q. And you don't think that to be the case? 3 A. I don't think that was the case. 4 Q. Looking at Exhibits 16 and 17, does that 5 refresh your memory that you were in fact on the 6 Personnel Board at least from October of '69 through 7 February of '72? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. During that period of time, do you recall 10 whether Archbishop Davis consulted the Personnel 11 Board regarding issues of visiting priests from other 12 dioceses? 13 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Are you saying priests 14 of this archdiocese visiting other priests? 15 MR. TINKLER: No. Priests from other 16 dioceses visiting this archdiocese. 17 THE WITNESS: I can't recall that 18 specifically, no. As I mentioned earlier, the 19 archbishop was his own man and did not always refer 20 things to his committees, whatever committees may 21 have existed. 22 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Do you recall whether 23 Archbishop Davis, as a routine practice, would 24 consult with the Personnel Board during this time 25 frame we're talking about, '69 through '72, regarding CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 808 1 requests for a priest that wants to be incardinated 2 in this diocese? 3 A. No, there was no consultation for 4 incardination of the board. 5 Q. Was that true during your tenure as 6 archbishop as well? 7 A. No. I made it a point that consultation 8 would take place with the board for any 9 incardination. 10 Q. How about with respect to the priests who 11 had been visiting the Servants of the Paraclete and 12 sought to work part time in the diocese during the 13 period of '69 to '72, would the Personnel Board be 14 consulted about that situation? 15 A. No, we would not. 16 Q. And you're sure that never happened? 17 A. See, we were a board for assignments, 18 canonical assignments. Any type of substitute or 19 part-time, weekend assistance didn't come from the 20 Personnel Board. That was totally an administrative 21 decision by the archbishop, perhaps with his 22 chancellor. 23 Q. With respect to assignments within the 24 Archdiocese by a priest that came from other 25 jurisdictions, was the Personnel Board during the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 809 1 years '69 through '72 consulted with regard to those 2 decisions? 3 A. I would have to say in regard to some. 4 That was precisely the issue that led to our 5 dissolving the board, that we were not always 6 consulted, and some of our recommendations were not 7 always followed. It was simply that the archbishop 8 felt that he would make his own decisions. 9 Q. Do you recall whether or not the board, 10 Personnel Board, was consulted in 1970 regarding the 11 assignment of Father Sigler to the St. Thomas parish? 12 A. I cannot recall that at all. 13 Q. When you say you can't recall it, are you 14 indicating there was no such consultation, or that 15 you simply do not remember? 16 MS. KENNEDY: I'm going to object. I 17 don't think that there is going to be evidence that 18 there was an assignment in the year 1970 to St. 19 Thomas parish. I think all -- and so that's the 20 basis of my objection, that there will not be 21 evidence to support that type of a question. 22 THE WITNESS: No, I do not believe that it 23 ever came before us. 24 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) How about in 1971? 25 A. I do not recall any action on that CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 810 1 particular individual. 2 Q. That you participated in as a member of 3 the Personnel Board? 4 A. That's right. 5 Q. Did the Personnel Board during that same 6 time period become involved in the decision making as 7 to whether someone would be made a deacon? 8 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Are you talking '69 to 9 '72? 10 MR. TINKLER: Right. 11 THE WITNESS: No. The issue of permanent 12 deacons was brand new, and it was so brand new that 13 the archbishop was handling that apparently himself, 14 together with the designated priest in charge of 15 permanent deacons. And we never really approved of 16 any candidates or their training. We were not 17 consulted. And at that time they were not really 18 given -- I can't recall them being given what we call 19 permanent assignments. I think there were so few, 20 the archbishop simply would assign them normally to 21 their parish of origin to assist the pastor at that 22 particular place. 23 The Personnel Board was not involved with 24 the permanent deacons. 25 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Was the Personnel Board CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 811 1 involved with the permanent deacon who applies to 2 become a priest? 3 A. If a permanent deacon -- no. A permanent 4 deacon if he has already been ordained is what you 5 are stating? 6 Q. No. I'm talking about the situation where 7 someone has become a deacon within the Archdiocese by 8 Archbishop Davis appointing him as a deacon and then 9 he wants to be ordained. 10 A. He would have to go to the archbishop to 11 request permission to enter the seminary then to be 12 approved by the archbishop as a candidate for the 13 priesthood, and his candidacy normally would not come 14 across us at all. That's between the archbishop and 15 his vocation director. 16 Q. How about when a priest in that situation 17 has ostensibly completed his requirements to become a 18 priest and is then seeking ordination, is that final 19 decision one that is even brought before the 20 Personnel Board? 21 A. The archbishop handled that totally 22 himself for ordinations. 23 Q. Was that true during your tenure as 24 archbishop, that type of situation? 25 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Which type of CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 812 1 situation? 2 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Where you have a deacon 3 who attends the seminary, graduates, and then wants 4 to be ordained? 5 A. The Personnel Board, during my tenure, 6 would be consulted about any upcoming proposed 7 ordinations to the priesthood because their 8 responsibility would be to have to assign them, but 9 they would have been free even prior to that 10 particular consultation to state any cause of 11 objection or any feeling why an individual should or 12 should not be ordained. But normally their role was 13 to be able to assign an individual to a parish or 14 whatever assignment was appropriate following their 15 ordination. 16 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Would the -- what you 17 have just described as the Personnel Board's 18 participation in that type of arrangement, was that 19 also the case while you were on the Personnel Board? 20 A. Their principal responsibility was the 21 assignment of ordained priests to various assignments 22 within the Archdiocese. If I chose to include any 23 discussion with the priest about upcoming 24 ordinations, we would do that, to find out -- this 25 would be before they would be ordained, to decide CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 813 1 where they best would be able to serve, but decisions 2 about the ordination would have been made with the 3 vocation director, in concert with the seminaries 4 where they were being trained, with the vocation 5 committee members and the archbishop. 6 Q. During the period of time you were on the 7 Personnel Board, do you recall any instance where you 8 objected to someone that was going to be ordained 9 because you didn't think they were qualified? 10 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I thought the previous 11 testimony had been that from '69 to '72, while he was 12 on the Personnel Board, the Personnel Board was not 13 consulted by Archbishop Davis with regard to 14 ordination. 15 THE WITNESS: We weren't consulted as a 16 board, nor do I recall ever being consulted as an 17 individual, no. 18 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Do you recall Father 19 Smith coming before the Personnel Board during the 20 time that you were on the Personnel Board? 21 A. He never came before the board. 22 Q. His name coming before the board? 23 A. No, I can't recall individual names who 24 were ordained or who served or who were transferred 25 at that time. We simply handled those who the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 814 1 archbishop asked us to handle. He formed the agenda 2 for us, and we would react to that. 3 Q. During the period of time you were on the 4 Personnel Board, do you recall the Personnel Board 5 ever being given access to the priest file on an 6 individual priest? 7 A. Never, um-um. No, that belonged totally 8 in the hands of the archbishop who had those files. 9 Q. Was that true during your tenure as 10 archbishop, that the priest files always remained 11 within your exclusive control? 12 A. That's right. 13 Q. And they were never shared with the 14 Personnel Board? 15 A. No. The Personnel Board did not have 16 access to personnel files, to individual personnel 17 files. 18 Q. Do you recall that once the Personnel 19 Board was disbanded, how long was it before it was 20 reformed? 21 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: If you know, 22 Archbishop. 23 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I can't recall. I 24 really can't recall whether it was a few months or a 25 year or two years. I just can't recall that. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 815 1 Perhaps -- I know that when I became the archbishop, 2 that I had a Personnel Board. Now, whether I 3 initiated it or reestablished one myself or whether 4 it had been reestablished prior to my coming on, I 5 just don't recall that, but I did have that Personnel 6 Board. 7 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) From the start, you had 8 a board? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And I think your testimony is that 11 sometime after Exhibit 17, the February 1972 letter, 12 is when the board was disbanded? 13 A. Um-hm. 14 Q. Was the period of time that the board was 15 not in existence the same period of time that you had 16 previously testified that Archbishop Davis had 17 started to show signs of disease? 18 A. My testimony was not so much disease, if 19 you look at it. I was saying he seemed to give 20 indication that he was not remembering actions that 21 he may have taken in the recent past because he would 22 be issuing another order which seemed to contradict a 23 prior decision. 24 Now, a person certainly can contradict a 25 prior decision if you're in that position of CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 816 1 responsibility, but we would be surprised at when 2 that would occur. And obviously he was indicating or 3 giving signs that his health was not as well as it 4 should have been. He was under his own physician. 5 He was suffering from chronic gout. He had to have 6 special shoes. And I'm not certain what other 7 illnesses he was suffering from, but it was obvious 8 that he was not as strong as he would like to have 9 been. I think that led also to his early retirement. 10 Q. I think you indicated previously that you 11 thought he was showing signs of Alzheimer's disease? 12 A. See, Alzheimer's took over his life. Oh, 13 perhaps five years after his retirement, it really 14 came on. And I believe that the initial signs of 15 that were what we were noticing without recognizing 16 it. 17 Q. Back during near the end of his tenure? 18 A. Yes, right, exactly. I think, you know, 19 some of these diseases evolve, they do not just hit a 20 person acutely immediately, and I think that was 21 taking place in his personal life. 22 Q. And as I understand your testimony, you're 23 saying that at the time that it was taking place, you 24 didn't connect it with Alzheimer disease? 25 A. Um-um. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 817 1 Q. But you just noticed some memory lapses? 2 A. Right. 3 Q. Were you aware if one of the diseases that 4 he was having difficulty with was alcoholism? 5 A. I wouldn't call it alcoholism, no, um-um. 6 Q. What would you call it? 7 A. I think he enjoyed his drink. I don't 8 know whether you enjoy drinks or not, but he enjoyed 9 his, but I wouldn't call it alcoholism. He was not a 10 chronic drinker, one who had to have alcohol around, 11 no. 12 Q. Was he a regular drinker? 13 A. I could not answer that question. I did 14 not live with him. I did not associate with him 15 regularly. So I could not answer that question. 16 Q. You were in Albuquerque the last, what, 17 two or three years that he was the archbishop? 18 A. Yes, three years. 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 818 1 2 3 4 5 The pastors knew, and we shared it that 6 if you were going to host him, and if he wanted a 7 drink, what he would drink would be some rum. That's 8 what he enjoyed. So get some rum on hand when he 9 comes because he may want a drink, and that's what he 10 would have. He wouldn't drink anything else. And I 11 think that's just common hospitality when someone 12 comes. 13 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) During the period of 14 time that the Personnel Board was not operating, do 15 you have any knowledge whatsoever about appointments 16 that were made during that time or any decisions that 17 were made with regard to priests coming into the 18 diocese? 19 A. No. There was no way I could have 20 information on that. I never saw the archbishop. I 21 never saw the chancery office. And so I was never 22 consulted for anything of that nature, no. 23 Q. When you became the archbishop in 1974, do 24 you recall whether it was a concern of yours at all 25 as to what may have happened with respect to the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 819 1 admission of priests into the diocese during that 2 period of time where there was no Personnel Board? 3 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. The 4 question is vague and ambiguous, asking the 5 Archbishop what his concerns were. It fails to 6 identify what your -- was he concerned? Was he 7 worried? Was he -- 8 MR. TINKLER: I asked if he had any 9 concerns. 10 THE WITNESS: I cannot recall any specific 11 concerns that I had of any personnel at that time. I 12 was simply overwhelmed with knowing that I was now 13 becoming the archbishop, and where do you start. 14 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Well, when you were 15 overwhelmed in that way, where did you start? 16 A. Well, I think we started with one thing at 17 a time. I had no idea -- I knew parishes. I knew 18 parish life. I had been a parish for many years -- 19 rather, a pastor for many years. I felt I knew most 20 of the priests, many of the priests. Some I did not 21 know, obviously, because they simply weren't in my 22 area, but I knew a good number. So I wasn't really 23 heavily concerned about that area. 24 I knew nothing about financing. I knew 25 nothing about our financial obligations. I was to CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 820 1 discover that the Archdiocese had a very heavy debt 2 due to a great deal of construction of schools and 3 churches, hospitals, orphanages during the 1950's, 4 and our indebtedness was considerable. It was 5 something like, when I took over, about $8 million of 6 indebtedness, and that's in 1974 dollars. So that 7 was a heavy concern. 8 And I needed to find out how the schools 9 were functioning. So we had to meet with school 10 boards in all of our parochial schools. I have a 11 great number that we had; we had like 25, 26 at that 12 time. I had to worry about hospitals. St. Joseph's 13 Hospital, even though it was separately incorporated, 14 we had other hospitals in existence at that time. 15 So there was just a great deal of 16 administration that I needed to become aware of if I 17 was going to be a responsible administrator, along 18 with the others. That's what I mean by being rather 19 overwhelmed. In other words, not having had the 20 experience in those areas, knowing nothing about 21 them, I had to start from scratch. 22 Q. You had to learn the areas? 23 A. Exactly. 24 Q. So is it fair to say at least initially 25 during your tenure, you spent a lot of time learning CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 821 1 new areas that you were not familiar with? 2 A. Absolutely. 3 Q. And you did not consider the priests 4 themselves to be one of the areas that you needed to 5 particularly study when you first became archbishop? 6 A. Right. I knew -- like I said, I knew 7 something about priesthood. I knew a lot about being 8 pastors, and I felt that was something that I was 9 familiar with and didn't have to learn from scratch, 10 but the other areas I definitely had to introduce 11 myself to. 12 Q. Looking back, is there any time frame you 13 can put on that initial period when you were still 14 learning, or did it continue? 15 A. I think learning is a lifetime 16 experience. 17 Q. But as far as from an administrative point 18 of view? 19 A. I suppose I found my walking legs after 20 about three years with everything, but even then 21 changes such -- major changes had to be introduced 22 into the diocese, that there were brand new things 23 that had to be learned: computerization of your 24 possessions, and looking at properties, projecting 25 new parishes; the explosive growth of Albuquerque and CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 822 1 Santa Fe, as well, where to project new parishes. 2 All of these things were new areas that I had to look 3 at. 4 Q. During, let's say, the first five years of 5 your tenure, do you recall whether you had any 6 particular focus on the priesthood itself during that 7 five years? 8 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. Vague and 9 ambiguous, "focus on the priesthood." 10 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Focus on the priests 11 within your diocese? 12 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: With regard to what 13 particular subject? 14 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Their fitness? 15 A. My focus on the priests during those 16 initial years was what I would call unity. 17 Q. What do you mean by "unity"? 18 A. I'll be happy to explain. The men, during 19 the tenure of Archbishop Davis, we were seldom 20 brought together as a body of priests either for 21 continuing education or for spiritual retreats and so 22 on. He had interest, but he fairly well let everyone 23 function independently. My desire was to bring a 24 sense of cohesiveness and of support and a bonding 25 together during my tenure. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 823 1 I had also entered as an archbishop during 2 a time when there were some strained feelings between 3 priests. We had a large number of priests born in 4 New Mexico bilingual, Hispanic background. We were 5 trying to move the pastoral work to be able to meet 6 the needs of the Spanish-speaking and the increased 7 number of people arriving from Spanish-speaking 8 countries. 9 There were some others who felt that that 10 was not necessary. There was disagreement, some 11 tensions this way. I felt I had to try to bind them 12 together to, in a sense, unite them in common goals 13 so we could all go forward together and overcome 14 those tensions. That's what I mean about trying to 15 build unity and community. 16 Q. Was that your primary concern during those 17 first five years with respect to dealing with the 18 priests in your diocese? 19 A. That and spiritual growth of the men. 20 Those were two areas actually that were very key in 21 my mind. 22 Q. What do you mean by "spiritual growth of 23 the men"? 24 A. Bringing them together for days of 25 spiritual reflections upon what I call the spiritual CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 824 1 goals of their priesthood. They had gone through the 2 '60's, and the early '70's were no easier. There 3 were an awful lot of conflicting values in our 4 society that were showing up in their own lives. The 5 emphasis that we would place upon -- in other words, 6 let's not get lost in all that is surrounding us and 7 forget who we are as priests, and trying to refocus 8 that attention upon priesthood, our prayerful 9 obligations, our own spiritual growth and 10 development, and not only growth as administrators or 11 executives of parishes, but rather spiritual leaders 12 and shepherds of people. 13 Q. With respect to that concern that you had, 14 what type of action did you take to enhance that? 15 A. I invited the men at the beginning every 16 two months to a general gathering. So six times a 17 year we would meet as a gathering of clergy. We did 18 that for two years. 19 Q. Was that the first two years? 20 A. The first two years. They then asked, 21 they said, "Archbishop, you know, it's difficult and 22 expensive to travel from so far to come down for a 23 day's meeting. Could we expand this or reduce the 24 number?" 25 We reduced the number then to four, then CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 825 1 to overnight meetings twice a year, and then it 2 finally evolved to what they asked would be a four- 3 to five-day general meeting of the clergy at least 4 once a year. And that is retained to this day. 5 So they have a general meeting of the 6 clergy on Monday through Thursday, and we initiated 7 that about, I'd say I suppose 12 years ago or so. 8 And that would be five days totally dedicated to 9 topics of both ministry, of improvement of their 10 ministry and improvement of their own spiritual life 11 as priests. 12 In addition to that, I invited the 13 deaneries to set their schedule to meet hopefully 14 once a month, the day that they would choose, to 15 invite the priests of the respective deaneries to 16 meet together both for prayer and for discussion of 17 common pastoral needs, and then to share meals 18 together, so that they could begin to build that bond 19 of unity. That has continued in these last 20 20 years. 21 I think that we overcame our divisiveness 22 to a very, very great extent and replaced it with a 23 strong sense of unity and a bond of mutual concern. 24 Q. How about problems that arose regarding a 25 particular priest during, let's say, the first five CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 826 1 years of your tenure? Did you handle all the 2 problems, or did you delegate that responsibility? 3 A. Both. Both. I had a vicar general, who 4 was Father Arthur Tafoya at that time, and he would 5 assist me. So if an individual was brought to my 6 attention with whom I could meet, I would normally 7 meet with that person, or if he had to go out of town 8 to meet him, I would ask the vic general to meet with 9 that person. 10 Q. Was Bishop Tafoya, then Father Tafoya, the 11 vicar general for the first five years? 12 A. He was a vicar general until his 13 nomination as bishop of Pueblo, Colorado. 14 Q. Whatever year that was? 15 A. Yeah. He -- I think it was 1980. So he 16 served as my vic general I believe for six years, six 17 to seven years. 18 Q. So is it fair to say that during those six 19 or seven years, any type of difficulty that might 20 arise with a priest would have either been handled by 21 either yourself or Father Tafoya? 22 A. That's fair to say. If it was not what I 23 would call of a, you know, of a personal nature, if 24 it was just, oh, the books weren't being kept well or 25 whatever, I would ask the dean to visit, because the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 827 1 deans were also designated as assistants to me in 2 their particular area to make certain that procedures 3 of the church were followed by the respective 4 pastors. 5 Q. With respect to complaints that may have 6 been received from parishioners about a particular 7 priest, is it fair to say during 1974 to 1979 that 8 either you or Father Tafoya would deal directly with 9 those complaints? 10 A. Yes, I would say we covered most of them. 11 Q. Were there any other priests within your 12 diocese during that time frame that dealt with 13 complaints of parishioners? 14 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: To the extent that you 15 remember, Archbishop. It's now over 20 years ago. 16 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I would just say, I 17 did not hesitate to invite my dean if it was 18 appropriate to do so, because distance, you're 19 familiar with distances in New Mexico, and it's not 20 easy to just hop in your car and travel 230 miles one 21 way to meet with someone and come back. So the deans 22 are there to facilitate that. 23 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) How about with respect 24 to leaves of absence where a priest might request a 25 leave of absence from the diocese, would you be the CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 828 1 one from 1974 through 1979 who would handle such a 2 request? 3 A. The bishop is the ultimate person who 4 grants that. He's the authority for that. He may 5 handle it personally, or it may be his vicar general, 6 it may be his chancellor who would talk with the 7 individual priest for whatever specific need the 8 priest needed time off. 9 Q. But, ultimately, the final decision would 10 pass your desk? 11 A. That's right. 12 Q. Do you recall when Father Sigler requested 13 a leave of absence? 14 A. Yes, I -- excuse me. 15 MS. KENNEDY: I -- okay. I'm sorry. 16 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. 17 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) And what do you recall 18 about that? 19 A. I recall, first of all, that it occurred 20 very shortly after my ordination as an archbishop, 21 within a week or two, and I think his contact with me 22 was probably by phone. He informed me that his 23 parents were ill, and that he would like permission 24 to leave the parish and go back and be close to his 25 parents. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 829 1 Since he was not a priest of our own 2 archdiocese, he was not incardinated in our 3 archdiocese, I really had no control over his 4 personal life. And so I granted him permission for 5 that, and then we looked for another individual 6 priest to replace him in his assignment. 7 Q. Do you actually remember that? 8 A. I remember that I got a call clearly. 9 I've given deposition on Father Sigler now about 10 three different times, and that type of discussion 11 has come up. So that's what's been fixed in my mind 12 right now. 13 Q. Have you reviewed Father Sigler's file? 14 A. Not his file, no, I haven't had access to 15 the file. 16 Q. Do you recall him resigning at this same 17 time period when he wanted to take a leave of 18 absence? 19 A. Well, he didn't have to resign because he 20 really wasn't pastor. He was an administrator. And 21 according to the Code of Canon Law, he does not have 22 any permanent assignment. So he can be relieved with 23 an administrative decision. 24 Q. So if he used the language in 25 correspondence like tendering his resignation, that CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 830 1 would be incorrect or not in accord with canon law? 2 A. It's not important. He was simply saying, 3 "I would like to inform you that because of the need 4 of my parents, I need to return home. You're going 5 to have to find someone else to fill" -- 6 Q. Okay. And it was your opinion at the time 7 that you really had no say about that in any event? 8 A. No. He was here as long as he wanted to 9 be here and as long as he was doing his job, but 10 since he was not an incardinated priest, I could not 11 refuse that request. 12 Q. Do you recall at the time that he was 13 consulting with you about leaving this diocese, that 14 you also during that same period of time, you had 15 made an assignment of Father Sigler to an Albuquerque 16 parish? 17 A. No. 18 Q. You don't remember that? 19 A. Not at all. 20 Q. Previously marked in your deposition in 21 January is Exhibit 12, which is Jason Sigler's file, 22 his personnel file, and there's a letter dated 23 September 13, 1974, I'm going to put it before you, 24 which is one of the pages within Exhibit 12. I would 25 ask you to review that letter. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 831 1 A. (Witness referred to document.) 2 Q. Have you reviewed that Exhibit 12? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Or that page from Exhibit 12? Does that 5 refresh your memory at all as to the circumstances 6 surrounding Sigler's request to leave? 7 A. The dates are, like I said, shortly after 8 my ordination. Exactly. The one thing that I do not 9 recall at all is having extended to him to consider 10 the possibility of an assignment somewhere in 11 Albuquerque. I don't recall that at all. No parish 12 even comes to mind. 13 Q. With the exception of that one part of the 14 letter, does it seem accurate? 15 A. Yes, uh-huh. Yes, he wanted to go home 16 because of his parents, and things seemed to be in 17 order. He had a place where he was going to go, and 18 the officials in Lansing were ready to accept him 19 there, and the rest of it is correct, um-hm. 20 Q. Did you contact the officials in Lansing? 21 A. I don't recall personally calling them to 22 inform them that he was going, but I believe I would 23 have asked -- normally I would have asked the 24 chancellor simply to place a call. He places all 25 calls like that between one chancellor and another. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 832 1 He provided the address of the church, the name of 2 the pastor, and so forth for that information. 3 Q. Do you recall who your chancellor was 4 right when you became the Archbishop? 5 A. At that time it was Father Lucian Hendren. 6 Q. And he remained your chancellor for about 7 seven years; correct? 8 A. Yes, about six, seven years, I guess. 9 Q. Do you recall directing Father Hendren to 10 contact the Lansing diocese? 11 A. I do not recall any direct or verbal 12 instruction. 13 Q. Do you recall whether or not you reviewed 14 Father Sigler's personnel file when he came to you 15 requesting this leave? 16 A. No, I did not review his file, no. 17 Q. Are you sure of that? 18 A. I am certain of that. 19 Q. Is it fair to say that as of the date that 20 he made -- September 13, 1974, when he wrote this 21 letter, that you had never reviewed his file? 22 A. I had not. 23 Q. Was it your practice -- what would cause 24 you during that, when you first became Archbishop, to 25 even go into a priest file, what type of event? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 833 1 A. I suppose if I were writing a priest a 2 letter, thanking him for his service at such-and-such 3 a parish because he is being transferred to another 4 parish, I would have wanted to find out what date he 5 was assigned to that parish so that I could say thank 6 you for X number of years in that parish, and that 7 would simply have been to look at his letter of 8 assignment. 9 Q. Would you routinely have gone into a 10 priest file when a priest requested incardination? 11 A. If they are requesting incardination and 12 have been with us a number of years, the very fact 13 that he was with us would have indicated that what's 14 in his file would have been positive, that he had 15 been allowed, in fact, to function, but it wouldn't 16 have necessitated my going into his personnel file. 17 What I would have been concerned about and 18 was, about anyone who requested incardination, was 19 how they were functioning at this time and what the 20 priests of that particular deanery or others who may 21 have known him, how they felt regarding that 22 particular individual. 23 So we would ask those priests to give us 24 in writing their own personal evaluation. 25 Q. Of the priest, of the one who is seeking CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 834 1 incardination? 2 A. Yes, when he reached that point for a 3 final judgment on him. 4 Q. Do you recall if it was your practice to 5 -- strike that. As I understand your last response, 6 you're saying you would not go back into someone's 7 personnel file and review their history? 8 A. That's right. 9 Q. Simply because they wanted to be 10 incardinated? 11 A. Like I mentioned to you, if an individual 12 had already served in the diocese for a long period 13 of time, I was more concerned about their work with 14 us and the evaluation of a priest regarding that work 15 than I was with what their own history may have been, 16 because their history would have been reviewed by the 17 then archbishop who had accepted them into the 18 diocese to begin with. 19 Q. So, for instance, in Father Sigler's case, 20 the fact that he had been accepted into the 21 Archdiocese by Bishop Davis would have been the 22 reason that you saw no -- you were not compelled to 23 look at his personnel file when he sought 24 incardination? 25 A. That is right, and that would have been CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 835 1 true of anyone else. 2 MS. KENNEDY: It's a little late, but I 3 have to put an objection on. There's no evidence 4 that this priest, this former priest, Jason Sigler, 5 ever sought incardination from this Archbishop. The 6 incardination request clearly in the documentations 7 you already have and that are marked as Exhibit 12 to 8 the prior deposition show that any mention of 9 incardination occurred during the tenure of 10 Archbishop Davis, none during the tenure of 11 Archbishop Sanchez. 12 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Do you recall Father 13 Sigler returning from his leave of absence? 14 A. Yes. Again, as I said, I have been 15 deposed in questions asked about Father Sigler now 16 three times, and information that has surfaced and 17 now is part of my memory is that he did call from, I 18 would assume his place of ministry in Michigan, and 19 asked whether or not there would be an opening of any 20 kind of assignment for him. And the reason that he 21 was inquiring was because, apparently, his parents 22 were in better health, and he would like to return 23 here for ministry. 24 I told him that I would place his request 25 before the Personnel Board to see what their reaction CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 836 1 would be. I assume that I did that because 2 subsequently, in response to a letter that he wrote 3 summarizing the phone call, I indicated that I had, 4 in fact, discussed it, and that we would be happy to 5 receive him back, and he would be able to return. I 6 didn't indicate a specific assignment at that time. 7 That would have to be determined. 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 837 1 2 3 4 5 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Father -- Archbishop 6 Sanchez, when you allowed Father Sigler to come back, 7 did you speak with anybody personally regarding what 8 he had been doing for the last year or two? 9 A. I did not personally. A letter did come 10 from the pastor where he had been working. And 11 normally that type of discussion goes on between the 12 chancellor and the chancellor of the diocese or the 13 pastor where the person has been working. 14 The letter that apparently stated that 15 Father Jason Sigler at that time had been working in 16 that specific parish in Michigan, had been working 17 very effectively, a hard worker, was a positive 18 recommendation for him. It contained no negative 19 reflection. 20 Q. And so you did not call the individual who 21 wrote the letter? 22 A. I did not personally. I did not 23 personally. I do not recall calling the man 24 personally. 25 Q. And is it fair to say that at that point CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 838 1 in time, you didn't even check to see if he'd 2 actually gone to the parish that he had previously 3 told you he was going to go to? 4 A. Except that the letter that had arrived. 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 Q. Archbishop, when you received the letter, 21 the question I'm asking you is that when you received 22 the letter from Hazel Park, Michigan, which is a part 23 of Exhibit 12, dated February 1, 1976, did you at 24 that time check to see if that was in fact the same 25 parish that Father Sigler had previously told you he CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 839 1 was going to go work at when he left New Mexico? 2 A. I do not recall checking that 3 specifically, no, sir. 4 Q. You say you brought this request before 5 the Personnel Board. If that were the case, would 6 the subject matter be the subject of Personnel Board 7 minutes? 8 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Objection. Calls for 9 speculation. 10 THE WITNESS: Normally, the subject of the 11 minutes, as I can recall, would have been a definite 12 assignment. When a definite assignment was given, 13 those things would have been put down in the 14 Personnel Board minutes. 15 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Although, as I 16 understand it, you're indicating that there may not 17 have been anything in the minutes about just the 18 general subject? 19 A. Just the discussion, there may not have. 20 Q. Back when you first were approached by 21 Father Sigler to leave New Mexico shortly after your 22 ordination, did you know him prior to that? 23 A. No, sir, I did not. 24 Q. Did you discuss Father Sigler with any 25 individuals within the diocese at that time when he CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 840 1 made the request? 2 A. I can't recall. Twenty years is a long 3 time. 4 Q. Did you have any contact with Father 5 Sigler during that period of time that he was outside 6 the State of New Mexico? 7 A. No, sir, I recall nothing. 8 MR. TINKLER: This is a good place to 9 stop. 10 (A discussion was held off the record.) 11 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Archbishop, when you 12 first granted Father Sigler's request to leave New 13 Mexico, were you aware at that time that he had ever 14 been to the Servants of the Paraclete? 15 A. I was not. 16 Q. When you were on the Personnel Board 17 those three years, at least we know those three years 18 -- 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Do you recall any instances where a priest 21 came before the Personnel Board regarding the issue 22 of whether or not he should go to the Servants of the 23 Paraclete or not? 24 A. Normally, they would never have come to 25 the Personnel Board for that discussion. That would CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 841 1 have gone to the archbishop. 2 Q. So is it at least your memory that while 3 you were on the Personnel Board, the Servants of the 4 Paraclete was not a subject? 5 A. No, not at all. 6 Q. Is that correct? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. You've already indicated that at least the 9 individuals on the Personnel Board caused it to be 10 disbanded one way or another. Was this a type of 11 revolt against Archbishop Davis? 12 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Object to the term 13 "revolt." Vague and ambiguous, especially in an 14 ecclesiastical context. Possible exception of Martin 15 Luther. 16 MR. BENNETT: Give or take a few heretics. 17 THE WITNESS: I think it was a statement 18 by the Personnel Board that whatever recommendations, 19 and I do not recall what we were discussing at that 20 time, whatever we were -- the issues before us were 21 not being received and acted upon; that he was acting 22 more independent; that it was a statement that 23 perhaps the need of a personnel board was not vital 24 to him. We were only an advisory capacity, and since 25 advice was not being accepted, perhaps it was saying CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 842 1 that he didn't appreciate the kind of advice. That's 2 fine. So we simply disbanded. 3 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) Do you recall whether 4 you and your other fellow members of the Personnel 5 Board were concerned about the appointments that he 6 was making as being unsafe or inappropriate? 7 A. I don't know if it's so much unsafe. I 8 think that it was, as I mentioned, there were little 9 concerns about ethnic assignments, language ability 10 assignments in certain parishes. It could have been 11 a variety of things, even one priest being able to 12 work well with another priest. And whatever 13 recommendations we were offering at that time 14 apparently were not being followed. 15 And it must have been rather consistent 16 because I don't think that we would have taken that 17 type of drastic action over simply one or two 18 recommendations. It must have been over a period of 19 time. 20 Q. Do you recall who else was on the 21 Personnel Board in '72? 22 A. No. You had that list in '69. I don't 23 know who would have been in '72. Perhaps some of 24 them. 25 Q. But you don't recall for sure? CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 843 1 A. No, I have no idea. 2 Q. Do you recall if there were any particular 3 members of the Personnel Board who were instrumental 4 in causing it to disband? 5 A. I don't remember individuals at all. I 6 just remember that that, in fact, occurred. I was 7 chairman, as you find there; so maybe I was 8 instrumental. I just don't recall. But apparently 9 it was just a bit of frustration. 10 Q. You indicated earlier that you assumed 11 there was a file for the Servants of the Paraclete 12 that would be separate from the priest files where 13 general correspondence would go into; is that 14 correct? 15 A. Yes. And my assumption was based on the 16 fact that you normally have files for various 17 religious communities. At least that would be my 18 way. I can't assume for Archbishop Davis. He was 19 certainly another man, and how he dealt with things 20 was entirely his own style. Period. 21 Q. Well, by "religious communities," when you 22 use that term, what does that include? 23 A. Religious orders: Franciscans, Jesuits, 24 Dominicans, Sons of the Holy Family, Blessed 25 Sacrament communities, Servants of the Paraclete, and CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 844 1 then many women's religious communities that I'm not 2 going to take time to mention. 3 Q. Was the Pecos Benedictine Monastery a 4 religious community? 5 A. Yes, it was. 6 Q. And is that an order? 7 A. That is a religious order of Benedictines. 8 Q. So there would have been a file, at least 9 while you were archbishop, for the Pecos Benedictine 10 Monastery? 11 A. Right. And the file for any of these 12 religious communities, just for clarification's sake, 13 is not a personnel file. It is a file regarding 14 whatever general correspondence would come from those 15 communities. And for those orders who are working in 16 the Archdiocese, who had specific assignments for a 17 parish here, a parish there, then there would be more 18 correspondence because they were charged with a 19 certain parish. 20 The correspondence with the Servants of 21 the Paraclete had perhaps some correspondence 22 regarding a very small parish, Our Lady of Assumption 23 parish in Jemez Springs. And since they had priests 24 there, they would care for that little parish. 25 They're not many people. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 845 1 Q. Were the Servants of the Paraclete in that 2 regard, where they actually were taking care of a 3 parish, were they under your jurisdiction? 4 A. When I was pastor, they had responsibility 5 for that little parish, but they designated one 6 person so that I knew who it was that was in fact 7 ministering to the people of that little parish, and 8 it would be that person with whom I would have any 9 correspondence. Again, since it was very small and 10 is, there was not much activity. 11 Q. But during whatever period of time that 12 they operated with one of their individual priests in 13 that parish, he, that individual priest, would be 14 subject to your jurisdiction; is that correct? 15 A. Yes, right, for his ministry to the 16 people, exactly. That does not give me any 17 jurisdiction over their internal affairs as a 18 community. All religious orders are independent that 19 way. 20 Q. And what's your understanding of how 21 religious orders relate as far as accountability to 22 the Archdiocese? 23 A. They're accountable to any bishop in the 24 diocese where they're located, principally for their 25 ministry in that diocese, if in fact they enjoy a CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 846 1 ministry. If a religious community has been 2 assigned, like, say, the Blessed Sacrament priests 3 are assigned responsibly to take care of St. Charles 4 Church, the Franciscans in Santa Fe are assigned to 5 take care of the cathedral parish of St. Francis, in 6 that capacity, as pastors to the people in that 7 parish, they have accountability to the local bishop. 8 For their internal affairs, their own 9 life, their own decisions, that's totally independent 10 of the bishop. They handle that internally. 11 Q. And during your tenure as archbishop, were 12 there ever occasions where you were asked at all to 13 participate in any internal affairs of any religious 14 orders? 15 A. That's a very general question. Yes. I 16 can cite one for you as an example. The Franciscans, 17 who have been here in New Mexico since 1598, had 18 their mother house stationed in Cincinnati. So all 19 of the decisions for the Franciscans who served in 20 our Archdiocese were really being made in 21 Cincinnati. Many of the Franciscans who had worked 22 out here for many years were desirous of establishing 23 their own administrative offices here, that they 24 would become their own province separate from 25 Cincinnati. And they felt they had the manpower to CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 847 1 do it. 2 So they worked toward that point, and they 3 asked me to join with them in studying the 4 feasibility of establishing their own province. 5 That study went over, I suppose, three, 6 four years, before they finally decided that they 7 would in fact establish their own province and 8 separate from their former province in Cincinnati. 9 They did act on that about five years ago, 10 six years ago. They are an independent province 11 named Our Lady of Guadalupe province. Their 12 administrative offices are here in Albuquerque. 13 Q. And once they accomplished that 14 establishment of the province, did you have any 15 jurisdiction over them? 16 A. No. Again, they're independent that way. 17 Q. With respect to the Pecos Benedictine 18 Monastery, during the first years of your tenure, 19 what, if any, responsibility did you have to that 20 monastery? 21 A. Actually, none, because they did not have 22 any specific ministry designated to them by myself or 23 my predecessor. They would cover a weekend in one 24 specific parish or another -- oh, I take it back. 25 They did have responsibility for one small parish in CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 848 1 San Miguel, I believe it was, one of the 2 Benedictines, and so I had contact with that 3 individual. But the rest of the community was 4 totally independent. They had no other ministry. 5 Q. Do you know, do you recall the name of the 6 individual Benedictine that you did have contact 7 with? 8 A. No, I do not. I can picture him, but I 9 can't recall his name. 10 Q. Do you recall if during the first years of 11 your tenure, you had any meetings with any of the -- 12 I don't know if "superiors" is the right word, but 13 the leaders of the Benedictine Monastery? 14 A. Not meetings. They did invite me to the 15 monastery for ordinations of men to the priesthood. 16 They had their own seminarians for their community 17 who were studying throughout the world, really, 18 somewhere in Rome, and as those men would complete 19 their studies and were in fact promoted for 20 ordination, the abbott of the monastery would invite 21 me to come to the monastery to ordain the man either 22 to the deaconite or to the priesthood. And so I 23 would go there for those occasions. 24 They were always very hospitable, I have 25 to acknowledge. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 849 1 Q. Do you recall the names of any of the 2 individuals at the monastery that you dealt with 3 during these early years of your tenure? 4 A. The one that comes to mind is Abbott 5 David. He was the abbott or superior of the 6 monastery for most of the years of my tenure. The 7 others specifically, I would recognize their names, 8 but they don't come to mind immediately. 9 Q. Do you remember an individual by the name 10 of Brother Marr or Murr? 11 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Would you spell that? 12 MR. TINKLER: If I can find the spelling. 13 Q. 14 15 A. No, it doesn't ring a bell at all. 16 Q. Does the name ring a bell at 17 all? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Do you know, did the Benedictine Monastery 20 have a seminary in New Mexico? 21 A. No, not to my knowledge. No, not at all. 22 They had men, like I say, studying in Rome, I believe 23 at St. San Anselmo, and going to the various 24 universities there, and they probably had seminarians 25 in other seminaries conducted by Benedictines here in CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 850 1 the United States, I would assume. I just -- I 2 didn't know and was not privy to their internal 3 affairs. I didn't know how many seminarians they had 4 either. 5 Q. With respect to the Sons of the Holy 6 Family, that order, when you became Archbishop, did 7 the Archdiocese have any kind of relationship with 8 the Sons of the Holy Family here in New Mexico? 9 A. Yes, we did, because the Sons of the Holy 10 Family were present in the Archdiocese to administer 11 to parishes, both close to each other in northern New 12 Mexico, one of Santa Cruz, Santa Cruz de la Canada, 13 and the second one in Chimayo, as well as they had a 14 chaplain for the Santuario de Chimayo, which is apart 15 from the parish. So they administered those two 16 parishes and that one sanctuary or pilgrimage site. 17 In their capacity as pastors and pastoral servants, 18 they were responsible to me as the Archbishop. 19 Q. When you became Archbishop, was that 20 already the case? 21 A. Oh, yes. They had been serving, oh, I 22 don't know when they first came to New Mexico, but 23 they came even prior to my predecessor. They had 24 been in New Mexico for many years, many years. 25 Q. And was it your understanding that they CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 851 1 had always been serving the Santa Cruz parish? 2 A. For as long as I can remember. It 3 probably goes -- I don't know what it goes back to, 4 certainly to the '30's, I would imagine. 5 Q. What's your understanding of how that 6 happens, when an order from obviously outside the 7 State of New Mexico comes into the State of New 8 Mexico? Do they contact the diocese, or do you know 9 how that works because there's already -- 10 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Generally, or -- 11 MR. TINKLER: Generally -- 12 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: -- are you referring to 13 the Santa Cruz parish? 14 MR. TINKLER: Well, the Santa Cruz parish, 15 if you know. 16 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I'll object. The 17 Archbishop has no knowledge of how the supervisory 18 authority over the Santa Cruz parish occurred. He's 19 speculating that it might have happened as early as 20 1930. 21 THE WITNESS: I don't know what the 22 history is. It could even go before that. I have no 23 way of knowing how the bishop at that time, whoever 24 he was, contacted them. But I can just say generally 25 today, bishops receive letters from religious CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 852 1 communities, men's or women's, saying that, we would 2 like to establish a ministry in your Archdiocese. We 3 are involved in this specific ministry of either 4 health care or teaching or parish work or whatever. 5 They identify themselves. "And if you have need, 6 we'd be happy to talk with you." That's one way. 7 Another way, a bishop would say, "I would 8 like to open a new school. I'm going to need some 9 teachers. I'm going to need -- I'd like to have some 10 religious nuns." And so he sends a general letter to 11 an organization that then puts it on a mailing list 12 to all the religious communities in the country, 13 advertising for sisters, and hoping that we would get 14 some responses. 15 So it can either be initiated by bishop or 16 initiated by the religious community, the contact, 17 the first contact. 18 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) With respect to the 19 Santa Cruz parish at the time that you were 20 Archbishop, were they the suppliers of all priests to 21 that parish? 22 A. Yes, as far as I know. When I took over, 23 the priests who served the Santa Cruz parish were 24 Sons of the Holy Family. The priests who served 25 Chimayo were Sons of the Holy Family. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 853 1 Q. Did that remain the case during your 2 entire tenure? 3 A. Yes, they were always Sons of the Holy 4 Family. 5 Q. Even to the present day, as far as you 6 know? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And so those priests being members of that 9 order were subject to whatever their own rules were; 10 is that your understanding? 11 A. Yes. And their mother house, the 12 provincial house, was back in Maryland, in Silver 13 Spring, I think it is, Silver Spring, Maryland. 14 Q. Did you know any of the leaders of the 15 Sons of the Holy Family order? 16 A. I knew the pastor and -- mostly, the 17 pastor. Sometimes I'd know the assistant, but I 18 wouldn't meet with them that much. And once a year, 19 the provincial superior would come down to have his 20 visitation to the parish as to those men, to his 21 community, and they didn't always invite me up to 22 visit with them. Sometimes I would learn that they 23 had come and they had gone, but, whenever possible, I 24 always like to say at least hello to them by way of 25 courtesy. CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 854 1 Q. And the provincial superior would be 2 someone from Maryland? 3 A. That's where his offices would be. I 4 don't know where they would be from, but that was his 5 offices, yes. 6 Q. And they would come down -- is it your 7 understanding they came down in a supervisory -- 8 MR. HARRIGAN: I'm going to object to the 9 form of that as being leading and outside the scope 10 of his personal knowledge. 11 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I join. 12 Q. (BY MR. TINKLER) You can still answer. 13 A. Religious superiors visit their own 14 communities to keep in contact with their own men or 15 own women. That's the general practice. 16 Q. And when you were Archbishop, did you 17 maintain priest files for each of the priests that 18 were running the Santa Cruz parish? 19 A. No. That wasn't my responsibility. The 20 individuals belonged to their community. I'd only 21 have a parish file. 22 Q. What would typically be in a parish file? 23 A. Oh, correspondence regarding their parish, 24 assignments of a new pastor, school information. If 25 they operate a Catholic school, who the principal of CUMBRE COURT REPORTING 221 Otero Street Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 (505) 984-2244 FAX: (505) 984-2092 855 1 the school might be. If they're going to purchase a 2 new piece of property, they're requesting permission 3 from our consultors for that. If they're going to 4 enter into debt because they're going to renovate the 5 church or a school building, and they need permission 6 to enter into debt for that. Things of that nature, 7 administrative correspondence. 8 Q. During your tenure as Archbishop, were you 9 ever apprised of changes in the ministry there? For 10 instance, if a different priest came in who was a 11 member of the Sons of the Holy Family, would you 12 receive notification of that? 13 A. Yes. The religious communities normally 14 send me a letter saying, "These are the changes that 15 we are requesting approval for" beginning such a 16 date. They had met with their own communities, made 17 their own assignments, and were informing me that 18 Father so-and-so, perhaps more than one, would be 19 coming to this parish, and these other two priests 20 might be going out elsewhere. I would then send them 21 letters saying, "Thank you for the information. We 22 are gra